PDP Leaders Didn’t Know Money Was From Arms Fund – Babatope
What is your take on the revelations over the arms procurement scandal involving the former National Security Adviser (NSA), Col. Sambo Dasuki (rtd)?
We have not heard the true story on the matter. What we are hearing is what media is reporting. I am a member of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP) Board of Trustees (BoT) and most of the things the press is talking about now is very strange to me.
Nobody in his senses will open his hands and collect money from what is called Dasukigate. Every political party in the world has the responsibility to carter for itself in elections; that is to prepare itself for elections. So, I hope most of the things they are talking about are not things that are mixed up with political party organisations. Let me give you an example; I was a member of the South-West zone of Contact and Mobilisation Committee, which was headed by Chief Bode George.
Nobody told anyone of us that we were being given money from Dasukigate or whatever. I know Dasuki very well in terms of his name and the office he held but I have never came across Dasuki in terms of giving money or anything. And when we talk about Dasukigate, it is a terrible thing to hear. Bode George has given a right answer.
The Contact and Mobilisation Committee, which composed 18 members in each geo-political zone was inaugurated by former president and PDP leader, Dr. Goodluck Jonathan in Abuja before the last general elections and nobody ever told us that he is sending money through Dasuki.
But Bode George said $30,000 was given to the committee
That must be. Even if it is not $30,000, it is not the N100 million they are talking about. N100 million to do what? If 18 people shared N100 million, each person will got about N5 million naira. It never happened. I have never in my life time held N5 million in my hand to say this is my own money.
So, apparently, I want to appeal to the All Progressives Congress (APC) and President Muhammadu Buhari, that much as the battle against corruption is something which must be supported by all reasonable people, they must ensure that they don’t reduce it to a ridiculous level of drawing people that have nothing to do with it into the matter. They should not drag innocent people into what they are doing.
Was money actually released to members of the committee?
If money was given to the party, it was for party organisation but not the N100 million they are talking about.
How much was actually released to the committee?
I don’t know. Bode George was the leader and I don’t know what was released. But on my own, I have never in my lifetime got anything in respect to the N100 million because if you share N100 million between 18 people, each person is expected to get over N5 million. I have never in my life time got that kind of money.
How much was actually shared by members of the committee from the arms fund?
I don’t know. I am not a member of the committee tackling Boko Haram. I am a member of the PDP and Contact and Mobilisation Committee of the party, so how do I know what is happening about somebody given money to people?
But the former Minister of State for Finance, Ambassador Bashir Yuguda, said he released N100 million to the committee while Bode George said he collected only $30,000 on behalf of the committee. There was also an allegation that N10 billion was used to settle PDP delegates during the party’s convention and that money was released for special prayers and to fund the campaign…
I know money was released to the party but nobody mentioned that money was being released to the party from money meant for purchasing of arms and ammunition to fight Boko Haram. At 73, I will never collect money that I don’t know its source or collect money from somebody I don’t know; that I have never met.
I know Dasuki, but I never met Yuguda. And that is why I am saying, they must be careful not to mix up matters. I hope nobody is mixing up party organisation with what people now call Dasukigate. How does money meant for fighting Boko Haram relate to members of the political party?
But some PDP members like Attahiru Bafarawa, Raymond Dokpesi, Bode George, Tony Anenih, Jim Nwobodo, Peter Odili and Haliru Bello and others were mentioned as beneficiaries of the arms fund, and some of them have confirmed that they collected money.
Let them explain themselves. Did you know as a journalist that the money allegedly released was from arms money? Do you expect the PDP members to know that the money was released from arms fund? Newspapers were also alleged to have been given some money from the fund meant to purchase arms and ammunition.
The newspapers did not know where the money came from. So, these are mysteries for people to unravel. But in all these, they must never allow the innocent to suffer and they must never damage the image and character of innocent people.
I never knew that Dasuki was carrying that kind of money they are talking about. He was not a PDP member; he was an official of the PDP government but not a member of the PDP. He was a public officer who was expected to be fair to all.
Do you think it was right for the former NSA to release money for purposes that it was not meant for?
That is meant for those who are investigating the matter to unravel. Many people don’t know about the Dasukigate until the recent revelations by some officials of the Office of the National Security Adviser and government officials in previous administration.
If not for the fact that the PDP was defeated during the last general elections and some of the revelations are now coming out, nobody will talk about Dasukigate. I am not saying that there must not be systematic fight against corruption. There must be and that is why many Nigerians need to support Buhari in what he is doing but he must not cut down the green trees while the dry ones are still standing.
With the revelation from the arms probe, would you still stake your neck to defend the Jonathan administration on corruption?
Which administration in Nigeria has not been found to be corrupt since independence? It is just that the cases are different. If you talk about corruption, how does Dasukigate affect Jonathan’s administration? We are talking of individuals, who are accountable for their actions. Jonathan’s policies on housing and agric sectors were not disrupted because of Dasukigate. Corruption has been with us; we want to fight and lessen it, but to say that we want to eliminate it would amount to waste of time.
Are you saying corruption cannot be eliminated in Nigeria?
It cannot be eliminated in any part of the world not even in America. There are many ways corruption can be introduced. Corruption is in every country of the world but the degree varies because tradition and custom in those countries are able to take care of what could have been damaging effects of that. Let us build our tradition and custom along what Buhari is doing and then perfects it.
Don’t you think that the issue of insurgency would have been tackled effectively if the money meant for procurement of arms and ammunition was effectively used?
I am an impartial-minded Nigerian. Jonathan’s administration tried its best in fighting insurgency by buying helicopters and other equipment. If arms were not purchased to combat Boko Haram, it would have been worse than now.
I was first of all thinking that the Boko Haram members were striking because of Jonathan, who was ruling the country then. Now that we have Muslim as president, it should subside, but rather it is escalating and innocent people are being killed in many parts of the country. They said they are killing because of God but God never sanctioned that. In fact, we have more problem of Boko Haram insurgency now than we ever had during Jonathan’s time.
But the present administration said it is winning the war against Boko Haram?
I am not saying they are not winning and may God allow them to win because if they win, Nigerians will benefits from it. But from what I am seeing, anybody saying they are winning is deceiving himself. He is living in a fools-paradise. They said they are winning and yet there were multiple bomb attacks in Borno and Adamawa states recently, which led to death of about 90 people. So, where is the winning?
Is it that President Buhari and the Minister of Information and Culture, Alhaji Lai Mohammed, are not being truthful with their declaration that Boko Haram has been largely defeated?
When Buhari said it, I was one of those who told him to stop wasting his time. International terrorism is now in Nigeria fully. In fact the ISIS and Boko Haram are waxing stronger. Lai Mohammed is a publicist; he is a nice boy and I happened to be one of the very close people to him.
I love him so much because he has handled the publicity of his party the way I did when I was in the Unity Party of Nigeria (UPN). But having said that, I told Buhari he was just joking to say everything will end on December 31. We have heard those stories before and December has come to an end and yet Boko Haram is waxing stronger.
We must be very careful because it appears to me that Boko Haram may want to extend its activities across the country in one guise or the other. So, by the grace of God, Nigeria will win the war but not through empty speculations or empty media prophecies.
Some PDP members have alleged that the anti-corruption war is selective. Do you share the same sentiment?
That is the correct analysis because President Buhari contested election and he didn’t contest election with stones, pebbles or palm leaves. He contested election with money. So, if you are bringing ridiculous charges against the PDP members on the basis of party organisation what happens to how APC funded its campaign?
Are you saying the probe should be extended to all the parties?
It should be to all parties. Let us also find out how APC financed its election, who gave what. And like I have said, any country that wants to survive must invest in political parties because they are an essential part of democracy.
But if you are pointing accusing fingers on somebody, saying someone gave a particular amount of money to a party or a committee, you are just wasting your time. Why are you doing that when you know that you cannot raise your hand to God that you didn’t spend any money for election purposes?
You are one of the politicians jailed for corruption during Buhari’s military regime….
Many innocent people were jailed then in the name of fighting corruption and that was why former Head of State, General Ibrahim Babangida did the right thing by setting up a committee to review detention and jail terms given to people. The chairman of the committee was from Edo State and he corrected many things. I was detained without trial and the first thing the man did was to discharge and acquit me even though Babangida had earlier released me when he found out that I did nothing wrong.
So many things were done to other people too. Bisi Onabajo was freed of ridiculous charges that he wanted to enrich somebody through granting of contract by UPN governors. You don’t try people on charges that don’t have any judicial foundation.
Would you say the president is on the same path with the ongoing probes, considering his recent statement that some looters will go to jail?
Let him send them to jail. It will be in his record; he had a record before. He sent me to prison and I spent 21 months without any trial. It would be on his record. I don’t hold his sin of sending me to prison against him now because he is of the same generation with me. Buhari is only one month and nine days older than me and if you put such a man in power, you are saying I am still useful. So, I will want a member of my generation to succeed, but if he wants to make a name by sending people to ridiculous jail terms as it happened before; good luck to him.
But some people are of the view that those who looted the public treasury must be punished?
Why don’t you go and execute them. Ghana did the execution but Ghana is now wallowing in corruption. I am not saying that corrupt people should not be punished. The hands that steal must be cut; that is my own view. Nobody has the right to steal money meant to develop the people. But you don’t propound a ridiculous solution and say you are fighting corruption.
I read in a newspaper last week of a prophet who said the war against corruption may backfire. I believe that the prophet is a psychologist of the best order because in a developing country like Nigeria, where poverty reigns supreme, if you are not careful in fighting corruption, you may be trapped.
So, we must be very careful so that the prophet would not be found to be correct in his analysis that the anti-corruption war may backfire. What I am saying is that any sensible person must support Buhari in his fight against corruption. As an individual, Buhari is winning laurels all over the country and all over the world for what he is doing, but he must do it within the realities of the socio-political situation of Nigeria inside Africa.
Are you not surprised about the level of corrupt activities under Jonathan’s administration, especially the various revelations that his aides and close associates looted the treasury and abused their respective offices?
It could have happened to any other person. It could even happen to Buhari, who is seen to be Mr. Clean. Have they mentioned Jonathan in what they are doing? Nobody has mentioned his name. People will continue to base their stories on speculations. When Mr. A is caught with an amount that is not defensible; whether he is in opposition or government, that person must answer to his father’s name. It has nothing to do with Jonathan.
But the looting took place under his watch.
Does Buhari know the entire thing that is happening under him now? He cannot because it is difficult. We are just hearing and reading someone saying he gave N500 million to somebody or N100 million to somebody. Jonathan may be reading those things the way Nigerians are also reading them. He many not know many of these things.
Do you see the PDP bouncing back to dislodge the APC in 2019?
By the grace of God, we are coming back to power in 2019. We are already aware of some of the dangerous things that we did in terms of party organisation and mobilisation. When I wanted to be Secretary of the PDP but was schemed out, I told those who are close to me that this is a pointer to what is going to happen in future and I think our party will have it very rough and I don’t think that we will survive it and it happened. All the elements who contributed, even those who are now in APC; they are definitely going to suffer.
The PDP has had its defeat and we are correcting what we did wrong very fast. So, by the time we reach 2019, we would have corrected ourselves and come back to power because we will not do all those things that kept us far away from the people.
Has the party addressed the factors that made it lose elections in 2015?
We are addressing it squarely. The Board of Trustees is going to meet on January 14. The National Working Committee (NWC) has been meeting and we are going to have our convention in March, so we are set. We will not make mistakes again.
What gives you the confidence?
If you look at the election results you will see that Prof. Attahiru Jega played a crucial role in getting us out of power. I am putting my compilations on Jega. He did his best as electoral commissioner but he got us out. He is an intellectual and he used his intellectual means to blow us apart. We were blown apart by Jega’s magic.
Buhari has spent months in office and some people have started campaigning for the 2019 presidency. What is your take on the early campaign?
That is the life of a politician. We are incurable optimists and we build our lives on the basis that we analyse events on daily basis, so it should not be a surprise at all that we have started thinking about 2019. While delivering a lecture in Benin, Edo State two months ago, I said following the convention of the PDP, the next presidential candidate of the PDP must come from the North and it is correct because our last candidate was from the South.
The NWC has also come out to say the North will produce presidency in 2019. We are going to build all our campaign apparatus on the fact that the presidency is going to the North and we are going to get a material from the North.
Do you see your party defeating Buhari if he seeks for a second term?
Why not? He is free to run. Buhari defeated us against what I call the run of pay. I never knew that Buhari will win but two weeks to the last presidential election, I knew that Buhari will win because at that time, the contradiction within our party had blown up that nobody could arrest it anymore. We can beat Buhari. There is no doubt that if Buhari goes on with the fight against corruption and he does it well, it would give us a fight but then it would also make us to fish out within the PDP, a good material from the North, who will be capable to outsmart whatever Buhari must have done.
What were the pointers that made you to conclude that Buhari will win two weeks to the presidential election?
I knew we are going to lose and we lost. I have been a party organiser all my life and I knew that we are going to lose. One of the playwrights said the centre cannot hold; anarchy is let loose on the world. Once you find a situation whereby the centre can no longer absorb the shocks of politics, as an organiser, you should know that there is problem.
I visited our party’s campaign secretariat about three times because my childhood friend, Tunde Adeniran, was the secretary of the campaign committee and from what I heard from the workers, when I got to my hotel in Abuja, I told my friends who were there that the election is over. I sent them out to go and monitor the opinion of the workers in the hotel and those nearby. They came back to me to say people were saying they are waiting for APC government.
So, what else do you need? And I knew at that time that it was too late for us to do anything. We could no longer lift our hands to build anything or push anything. We had to take it that we were gone and blown into pieces by the APCBuhari magic.
I must confess to you, I wrote about Buhari, pointing out that he is a tyrant but my write-up made no meaning in the minds of young people. Even my own son told me that; “Daddy, don’t waste your time, write anything you like about Buhari, many of my friends are going to vote for him and not APC.” He said he was going to vote for Buhari. Those were the political indices that became clear to people like me; a party organiser of all time that we were gone.
Is it right then to say that the hate campaign embarked upon by the PDP and other groups against Buhari during the election didn’t yield any result?
It did not work. If it worked, it only worked in the midst of people of my generation, who saw Buhari and his stark nakedness when he was in power and not the youngsters who were shouting Change! Change!! Change!!! We have seen the change and if the change remains what it is, where Buhari is telling all of us that he will send looters to jail term and all kind of things, then, we wish Nigeria the best of luck. I want him to succeed because if he succeeds, it shows somebody from my generation that is succeeding as the president of the country.
New Telegraph.
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